Interview I conducted in 2009 after the Delhi High Court decriminalised homosexuality.
PURUSHOTHAMAN MULLOLI is general secretary of the Joint Action Council, Kannur-India (JACKINDIA) which intervened in the Section 377 case in the Delhi High Court. In an interview he explains his opposition to the case.
What is JACKINDIA? We are a 35 years old organization working on HIV-AIDS. I have myself been involved for the last 22 years. We started in Kannur, Kerala, but have been based in Delhi for ten years now to fight our battle at a national level.
What is your main opposition to the 377 case? Homosexuals are branded by foreign-funded AIDS NGOs, such as the petitioner Naz Foundation in this case, as ‘high-risk groups’. This is not based on any study or scientific evidence. In our appeal we asked for evidence that homosexuals are a high-risk group. NACO was supposed to conduct a study that is till date incomplete and unpublished. The judgement and the media attention to it has completely ignored that the case was about AIDS. Homosexuals are already a marginalised group. If you brand them as high-risk then you further marginalize and degrade them. This is a violation of their human rights! Secondly, the NAZ contention was that they’re unable to work with homosexuals on safe sex because homosexuals go underground because of 377. They provide no evidence that homosexuals are going underground.
But at any rate, all that the judgement does is decriminalize private consensual homosexual sex. You don’t seem to be against that? I am not against that at all. But 377 does not criminalise it at all! Read 377. It does not mention homosexuality at all. This is a fraud campaign that has been unleashed on this nation.
But 377 does criminalise all sex it says is against the “order of nature”? But to prove that you need a victim and a witness. If it’s consensual there’s no case. Sow hy this fuss?
They say it is used for harassment. But they don’t provide any evidence. Instead this is just going to divide the nation on the lines of sexual preferences!
But the judgement talks of diversity, inclusiveness. No, on the contrary it produces a new class of people. This is like a reservation programme on the basis of sexual orientation.
But the judgement makes no special provisions for them, only allows consensual private sex.
But if you’re doing it in your home consensually where’s the victim to file the case? If you do it in Nehru Park then even heterosexual sex would be book for obscenity.
In that case the reading down of 377 is insignificant. Why are you opposing it? It will lead to the commodification of homosexuals. That is a huge market waiting to exploit the opportunity. It’s a 15 billion dollars business. It ‘s a sex industry waiting to be exploited.
Worldwide? No, in India alone!
How did you get the figure? It’s from a study that I will disclose at the right time.
But what will this business be like? And are you saying this was the motive of Naz Foundation? Naz and others are the pimps of the sex industry. These are not GB Road like pimps but they pretend to be consultants. What will happen now is that they will open gay clubs and bars. That’s how the business will flourish.
But if there are straight clubs what’s the problem with gay clubs? There will be prostitution all over. Gay sex is being allowed but there’s amovement of prostitutes demanding sex workers’ licence. If gay sex is being allowed why can’t prostitutes be given licences?
If prostitution is licensed then you will support the reading down of 377? Then anything can happen. Then you can sit in your home and sell your father, sell your mother, negotiate the rates for your sister.
Coming back the AIDS argument, they say that this will help control AIDS by increasing awareness of safe sex amongst homosexuals. But they don’t give any evidence. Five years into the case, NACO came up with a 21 pages long affidavit endorsing that homosexuals are a high-risk group but backed it with no study, no evidence. It’s a fraud of an affidavit. We have proven this in our report. NACO is anti-national.
But why is NACO doing this then? Ask them. I am a villager and all I’m asking for is evidence of their claims. Do you know that till date there is no scientific reference of the isolation of the HIV virus, there’s no evidence that HIV causes AIDS, or that it is sexually transmitted? I’m just a villager. All I’m asking for is evidence of these claims.
But homosexuals are said to be high risk because of unprotected sex with multiple partners. Give evidence.
You are virtually saying AIDS doesn’t exist, but you said you’ve been working on AIDS for 22 years. What have you been doing? A lot. You will see when the time comes. Everyone’s clothes will be off, all the foregn-funded NGOs who make noise will be unmasked and their businesses exposed.
Bharatendu Prakash Singhal was a Hindutva ideologue, a retired IPS officer and a former BJP Rajya Sabha MP. On a Sunday afternoon in 2009, I visited him to discuss his opposition to the decriminalization of gay sex by the Delhi High Court. He was preparing to appeal against it in the Supreme Court.
Singhal, brother of VHP leader Ashok Singhal, passed away in 2012. A shorter version of this interview had appeared in Open magazine.
So the judgement has not come in your favour.
What can you do when the judge does not even taken notice of what you have put forth as evidence? There is just one paragraph in connection with the averments made by us. There is massive propaganda from the other side, that they are being harassed under 377. In my 35 years in the IPS I saw not a single case registered under 377 and no case of police harassment.
If it is not used what’s the point in having it?
It is a paper tiger. It inhibits people from freely becoming homosexuals.
But what’s the point of having a law that is not to be implemented?
For implementation of any criminal law you need a complainant and a witness. Sodomy is being conducted in closed rooms and neither party will complain because it’s a mutual consent matter.
That is precisely what the High Court order applies to – consensual homosexual activity. What is the problem?
Or female with female?
No, we’re talking of male sex with male. 377 does not refer to lesbians or eunuchs.
Because it specifies that penetration has to take place.
Yes. They included eunuchs and all to give it the shape of a cause. This is fraud.
From your point of you only male-to-male is to be criminalised, lesbians are fine?
It is male-to-male that is causing all the harm. Lesbians only end up in suicide. Male-to-male breeds diseases. Female-to-female are harming themselves only. When lust takes over, men pick up boys, threaten them not to go to the police.
But if that’s been happening despite 377, so what good is the law?
It’s a paper tiger. 35 cases came to the courts in 140 years under IPC 377. It was not hurting anyone.
Another argument is that people who are gays feel that their desire, their very existence is being criminalised. Why? You don’t have to endorse it, but why do you to call it crime?
I have an urge to steal your motorcycle. Why should my desire be criminalised?
But in this case it’s consensual, it’s more like the lending of a motorcycle!
What about adultery – consenting adults? The whole question is that of morality in society, of social morals. That is the casualty.
The judgement recognises this, but quoting Ambedkar, it says laws cannot be governed by public morality. They are governed by Constitutional morality.
If the Constitution is lacking in enforcing public morality then there is something wrong with it or its interpretation. The Constitution prescribes not just fundamental rights but also duties. (Digs out his copy of the Constitution and reads.) Fundamental duties say, “Follow the noble ideas of our national struggle… to value and preserve the rich heritage of our composite culture!” In this comes our public morality!
The high court judgement quotes Nehru as saying we are a nation that is inclusive.
Then we should not bother about arresting dacoits either. We should be inclusive.
Isn’t there a problem in equating homosexuality with dacoity?
Why? Homosexuals have also been transcending the law. How can you differentiate between the violation of one law and another?
In this case they’re saying the law is wrong.
That’s what they think, but so long as the law was there they had no business in indulging in it, but they were.
That’s why they challenged the law in court.
But all this while they’ve been violating a law equal to theft and dacoity! They talk of consenting adults, why should gambling be an offence? Five-seven consenting adults playing, what is wrong with it? What’s wrong with Sati, as a devout wife if someone wants to commit it?
But the argument about Sati is that public pressure forces the widow into Sati.
That is murder. (Narrates an example of a woman in Sitapur prevented from committing Sati, and the husband’s body didn’t burn completely despite a lot of effort.) She was not being forced and yet committed Sati.
Do you want Sati legalised?
I think it should be anybody’s freedom just like you want the right to sodomy! What suits you is okay…
You mean if Sati is legalised you will support consenting homosexual activity?
No! Sati was a crime because people were forcing widows to sit on the pyre. That is murder, not Sati. The rich heritage of our composite culture has to be taken care of…
That is fundamental duties in the Constitution, can’t be legally enforced unlike fundamental rights.
It is not possible to prove a negative thing in court.
Talking of heritage, scholar named Devdutt Patnaik has written about the presence of homosexuality and a broad-minded view of gender in ancient times.
Nobody denies it. But there was nothing loose about the morals.
According to one story he quotes, Shiva bathes in the Yamuna and becomes a gopi just to be able to dance with Krishna.
So what? Where is the immorality about it? When no other man is permitted there Shiva converts!
He says according to one’s karma one could be born as a man with a woman’s heart ot vice-versa.
I can’t understand this. Let’s focus on 377.
I’m talking of culture and heritage. The UK Hindu Council’s general secretary Anil Bhanot has welcomed the judgement and has said that Hindu scriptures describe the homosexual condition as a biological one and although they give parents advice on how to avoid a homosexual child during insemination, they do not condemn such children as unnatural.
In Manusmriti punishment was described for homosexuality…
Punishment was punishment even if it was to stand in the sun for a few hours.
Certainly not ten years in jail.
Those were ancient times.
Queer rights activist Ashok Row Kavi wrote a letter to the then RSS chief KS Sudarshan when the film Fire was being attacked. He wrote in the letter that LGBT communities have always existed in India since he time of the Vedas and the Puranas, and says that Hindu mythlogy regonises ten different male genders alone. He said Hindu religion has been more sophisticated on the question of gender than Western culture. He says 377 comes from St. James’ Bible!
When Manu has prescribed a punishment ages ago, you can’t play fraud by saying it’s Victorian. Progress is defined by the spiritual evolution one gains on the planet. Progress is not measured in terms of money or physical pleasure.
There’s this book, Same Sex Love in India, which says same-sex love has flourished in India since ancient times.
Aberrations can’t be quoted as flourishing. There was a survey by Wikipedia in 2004 of 44 countries asking if they would like this to be an offence. 83% in India opposed it! So that is our culture.
But recently, on the eve of the pride parade in Delhi, a newspaper survey said 51% people have no problem with homosexuals.
Neither do I! I don’t have any problem with homosexuals. Do you? Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time, doesn’t mean it’s a healthy thing. The Center of Disease Control in the US has done a study on how homosexuality breeds diseases. Besides it’s completely unnatural. The anus is designed only for exit of things. It is not for entry. Therefore the mucus membrane of the anus is soft and can be torn with the slightest of rough material. Whereas the vaginal mucus membrane is tough. If it was natural the anal mucus membrane would have been equally tough. Secondly, when a woman is desirous of sex, the entire vaginal canal is irrigated by a very slimy fluid to make coitus pleasurable and easy. No such lubrication takes place in the anus.
Why is why gays use lubricants.
Yeah! Artificial lubricants! They’re doing an artificial job! You can’t call it natural.
Okay may be it’s unnatural.
That is all that our fight is.
But lots of things are unnatural. Like we’re not born with clothes but we wear them.
Why is obscenity a crime? It provokes. A nude woman will provoke so many boys on the street. It hits our culture.
But if people are doing it in private?
They were doing it in private already, who was stopping them?
377’s fear, guilt, criminality, harassment by the police.
That is all bogus and imaginary. I asked them, please give examples. They said there were any number of cased but the only example they ever had was the Lucknow example. I will tell you what happened in Lucknow. When the police raided this place in Lucknow, they were boys and boys, and they were supposed to be doing HIV-AIDS work, teaching them condom and all that sort of thing. The recovery memo shows video cassettes, explicit sodomy taking place, provoking them. There were all things that were promoting homosexuality. No condom was found, it was a gay orgy. (Tries to find the Lucknow memo in his papers, instead hands over an internet printout of something else.) See, in America they do detailed study, unlike India. Risky behaviour, promiscuity, low life-span… You can say what’s the problem if they are reducing their life span but they’re infecting others.
But WHO, UNAIDS have all welcomed the high court order…
Remember this, USA controls WHO and has millions of dollars at stake in promoting this.
This document that you have given me for instance, from nationalmorality.com, has a lot to say about the Bible and family values. Seems to be coming from Christian evangelist propaganda.
And what you have given me is coming from gay propaganda!
Unprotected sex can spread AIDS amongst gay and straight alike. The argument is that decriminalising homosexuality helps NGOs like Naz work with homosexuals on safe sex.
The Lucknow case is a classic case where they were caught red-handed. There was not a whiff of AIDS control. Only pornography. Why do they need it for AIDS control. They were running a brothel. Which is still an offence, you may remove 377 but running a brothel is still an offence.
Sir somebody who says he’s gay and desires sex only with a man, is not attracted to women. What will you say to such a person?
What will you say to a person who says he wants to have sex with only a dog. They will say this is absurd, there’s no connection. Why not? It’s a question of physical attraction too. The moment you start talking of love it’s disgusting! You can say it’s a question of lust and I want to satisfy it. That’s okay.
There is indeed lust, and there are people who want to satisfy it with only their own sex.
They have been having it.
But you are against it.
No, not at all!
So what are you against?
I am against that anything be done openly which promotes and provokes others to follow it.
But if anything is obscene it’s illegal anyway.
Did you see the kind of obscene actions they did during the parade here? Did the police take any action?
Yours is a nuanced position.
I feel homosexuality is a crime against humanity. You may punish it or not. That is why it carries a strong stigma in society.
But if you are against homosexuality then don’t you want the loopholes in 377 done away with and prosecutions to go up and reduce the incidence of homosexuality in society?
No! There are so many things the government has to do. This is something society has to take care of. That is why there’s a stigma about homosexuals. (In a TV studio) one of the activists told me sir, when I walk on the street people call me (pauses to think) the Hindi word for catamite. He said they abuse me. I said if you indulge in it why do you consider it an abuse. You should wear it as a title!
On a Friday evening, Ajay Kumar Singh has driven his family to a tourist spot in Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh. It is quite some spot, this. It is not a relic of the Awadh Nawabs or the British Raj; it is a statue of UP Chief Minister Mayawati alongside that of Kanshi Ram, founder of the Bahujan Samaj Party (BSP). On the other side of the road are similar gargantuan statues of Bheem Rao Ambedkar and his wife Ramabai. Singh is visiting the Samajik Parivartan Prateek Sthal or the ‘Site of the Symbol of Social Change’. Continue reading “The Edifice Complex”→